they are in favor of tax cuts for the rich. they want to cut tax care programs and medicare and make seniors pay and threaten the economy of the united states of america by defaulting on payments or at least to threaten that. this is not a very popular position among the public. in fact, they will be -- i think it's a suicide mission that they are on, that the american people will make them pay the price. i really don't understand their strategy. >> margie, if you look at the fact that in the 2011 debt ceiling battle senator mitch mcconnell had this to say. he said, i think some of our members may have thought the default issue was a hostage. you might take a chance at shooting. most of us didn't think that. what we did learn is this. it's a hostage that's worth ransoming. and it focuses theç congress o something that must be done. now, if this was their thought and attitude in 2011, do you think that's what we're dealing with, that kind of feeling, attitude of holding the hostage for ransom now? >> i hope not. it's bad for -